Alice Shikina (00:01)
Welcome listeners to another episode of Negotiation with Alice. I have a repeat guest today, Mike Inman. Mike was actually my very first podcast guest many months ago and we talked about how the role of emotions come into play in negotiations. So I've invited Mike back. I'm super excited to have a conversation with Mike. So welcome back Mike, how are you?

Mike Inman (00:27)
Hey, Alice, thank you for having me. And it just dawned on me as you said that I have a current negotiation that just happened that had a lot of emotion in it that I can share with your guests. And I'm sure they'll all resonate. It'll resonate with them because they probably have very similar issues that they're dealing.

Alice Shikina (00:44)
I would love to hear your story.

Mike Inman (00:45)
Okay, well should we jump right into it? Maybe maybe some good topics will come out of it. So my wife is just going through standard health checks and things like that and there was a test that was optional and And their doctor said listen before you just go get this test Talk to your insurance company make make sure they'll cover it for you because some do and some don't So my wife called the insurance company and they said absolutely it's covered. You'll just pay the copay

Alice Shikina (00:48)
Sure. Yeah.

Mike Inman (01:13)
Now the test is advertised at $1,000. The copay is $149. But when the insurance said, yes, you just have to pay the copay, no problem. So she talked to the provider as well. And they said, yeah, absolutely. If insurance will pay, it's $149 copay. So she takes the test, passes, does everything great. And then the bill comes for $1,000. And my wife was like, two different people in this process told me it was $149.

So she calls up and the lady that she gets on the phone with the provider says, well, if you read in the details, the fine print, you lawyers, Alice, there's a couple of lawyers that give the rest of the profession a bad name because there's a really good lawyers out there. But in the fine print, it says if you've met your deductible, then you only have to pay the copay. But if you haven't met your deductible, you have to pay the full thousand. Now, my wife is a Brit. She's very

Alice Shikina (01:50)
The fine print.

Mike Inman (02:12)
She does not like conflict at all. Now, but I've, I've overheard this part of the conversation where she's a little upset that this has happened. She loses it. Like a level 11 boom, just all over this poor customer service agent. And I was told this and I've got a screenshot and she's just, just going at it, at it, at it. So now the person who's let's be honest, you know, they're, they're at a call center.

They're probably making minimum wage. They're probably getting yelled at all day long for some problem. You know, I, I make assumptions about people's professions and things like that. I'm wrong a lot, but, but I'm assuming they don't get a lot of people calling and saying, I loved your service. Thank you for that. So, so this person says to her, let me, let me help you out. what if we put you on a monthly payment plan? And my wife says for the 149 and they say, no, no, for the thousand.

Wait a minute! And now she's, she stays at level 11 because this person didn't just make it go away. Then they tried to say, well, I'll just spread it out. Now we could pay the bill and spreading it out was always nice, but it was the principle of the matter for my wife. So, so she keeps at them. So now the next move in the negotiation, they say, well, how about half? So now only 500 instead of a thousand. Now my wife could take the 500, put it in her pocket and, and

have negotiated a good deal, but she's still running high on emotion. No! 149. It's got to be 149. It was promised by two people, 149. And, and, but I need to check with a manager. You do that. You check with your manager. And up, up, up. And finally they came back, and this is after 20 minutes of her just being like on level 11. And they finally said, okay, for you, 149. Now she didn't need

As a negotiator, hate to go to level 11, to threaten, but there is a time and place for it. And it can have a positive impact on the outcome, at least for your side. So what do you run into? Because you're in mediation. you, especially family mediation where emotions run high, these aren't subset here. I talked to a gentleman who's a negotiation expert over in Germany.

And he said, he read a study that in negotiations, in making decisions, we are more like Homer Simpson than Spock, that humans are emotional-based. And I said, I agree, we are emotional-based. However, I think there's a range of emotions. I think when you're in crisis, when you're on a bridge, your brain is firing, you're making irrational decisions, that's extremely emotional. And then there's,

Alice Shikina (04:43)
Right.

Mike Inman (05:04)
when you want to buy a red Porsche, it's not practical. know, there's much better uses of your money and red, you know, you're to get more tickets with that. At least that's what the, you know, some of the data says, but that's still an emotional base. You fell in love with the red Porsche. So that's an emotional based. And then there's buying marketing services. Marketing is generally a very touchy feely. Yes, there's a lot of science to it, but it's still a lot of emotion. But so then there's

There's on the emotional scale, that's got a lot of emotion to it. And then the other end in production for manufacturing, if you, if you're buying blow molded injection parts and you've got seven blow molders that you're trying to keep happy and spread the business around, it's a much more objective. You're much more Spock, which plant is closer, who's got better quality ratings. so there's a lot of objective metrics that go along with that piece of it. So.

So on the business side, there's a lot of subject or a lot of, critical thinking and objectivity that goes into a negotiation. But what I described with my wife and what you probably go through where you've got a family that's being torn apart and schedules, and I got to get you back for that one time that you got me. Talk to me about that use of emotion.

Alice Shikina (06:24)
Yeah, so I think that your wife happened to be lucky that she got exactly what she wanted, right? It could be a factor that she successfully bullied whoever it was. It could be that...

Someone she was speaking to was thinking of like maybe a long-term relationship with her so they don't want to burn that bridge, especially if she's threatening to go to different insurance company. That's a possibility. But the bottom line is whoever she was speaking to decided to escalate it to someone who had the authority to give her that 149, right? Like it went up and up, like you said.

Mike Inman (07:00)
Right.

Or Alice, they might have put her on hold. Had their cup of coffee.

came back. You know, the use of use of the bad cop, the use of level of authority, I can't do that, maybe someone else can, is a negotiation tactic that can be in play.

Alice Shikina (07:11)
Right.

Yeah.

It is, and so, you know, we don't know whether the person that she spoke to had the authority and then did that tactic where they said, let me hold and let me find out, or if they didn't have authority and had to escalate it because a lot of times the person above them might say, you know what, we're not giving this person that and so it's your job to go deal with her. I don't care what you say to her, but the answer's gonna be no, right? And then they never actually speak to her, right? The person with authority, they're passing the...

the ball onto the person speaking directly with your wife. So she was very lucky that her anger sufficiently got her where she wanted to. However, what I usually tell people is that can probably get there and more potentially when you're being nice. Because if you think about it, what human being on this planet likes to be yelled at by a stranger? Right?

Mike Inman (08:17)
I'm with you. In fact, I have a call to technique that I use when I'm calling customer service when there's been a problem. And this is based on a couple of things. used one of my responsibilities in corporate world is I had a call center. So I didn't answer the calls and I wasn't the first level, but it was over the call center. So I kind of understand the business and the model that is there. And then I make some assumptions just about the person's role. So for example,

I assume that customer service is one of the lower paid jobs at most companies. Oftentimes it's outsourced. So they're minimum wage. I assume that they probably don't like their employer either. Most employers treat low wage people very poorly. So when I've had a flight disruption, when I've had a hotel with a smelly room, when there's been a problem, I call the person at the other end, the call center, and I say,

Alice Shikina (08:52)
Yes.

Right.

Mike Inman (09:15)
Thank goodness you're here. You're the only person in the world that can solve my problem right now. I almost, I give myself up to them. Now I can always escalate later. I can always get mean later, but I want that person thinking, this guy is treating me different. Because the third assumption I make is they get calls all day long yelling at them. Okay, so now, now that I've kind of manipulated the emotional situation, I will say things like, I will never say,

Alice Shikina (09:36)
Yes.

Mike Inman (09:45)
Alice, I'm mad at you. You screwed up. It's always your company. Your company really screwed this up. I don't know who, but I'm having a real problem. But you, Alice, are the person with the power that can help me. Now, the other assumption I'm making because of the responsibilities I've had is that they've got a little checklist of things they're allowed to do and things they're not allowed to do. And they have metrics, like most call centers.

How quickly can you save this account, get them off the phone, leave you a five at the end of the number? So as I've treated them like a human being, as I've made the bad cop their employer that they agree with, I found that I get two or three of the things they're allowed to give very quickly, very easily. So I just, now could I get more if I yelled at them? Maybe, I just don't like myself when I yell.

Alice Shikina (10:42)
but you probably wouldn't get more. You'd probably get less. You can get more, it's like they say, you can get more with honey than with vinegar. Because if the idea when you're calling customer service, if you're upset about something, the idea, well, most people, they feel like I'm gonna go and berate them, But like you're onto something. The real idea is you're trying to get this person to advocate for you.

You get them on the phone, they're a complete stranger, and you're gonna say, look, I need your help. Like you said, you're the only person who can help me. So you wanna get them to advocate for you to the company. So either they give you everything that they have the power to give you, or they go advocate to their boss and say, look, Alice is like, she had a really bad time, I'm trying to help her as much as I can, let's give her extra. You want them to go the extra mile.

Mike Inman (11:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Alice Shikina (11:36)
because

you are saying I'm entrusting like you to help me.

Mike Inman (11:42)
And there's a hospitality, I'll call it technique tactic, using the person's name. Hospitality industry, they're taught to find the guest's name, call the guests by their name. I believe it's Dale Carnegie who says people love to hear the sound of their name. So when I'm talking to the customer service and I've got Jimmy, and I know his name really isn't Jimmy based on his thick accent and part of where I'm from, but it's great that he uses Jimmy because if he used his real name, I probably wouldn't be able to pronounce it.

Alice Shikina (11:46)
Yes.

Mike Inman (12:11)
And that would be disrespectful. So anyway, to use these, it's so difficult. It is manipulative in some way.

Alice Shikina (12:20)
It can be called manipulative,

but it's also understanding psychology.

Like, okay, this is slightly different, but I'm gonna tell you a funny story, because it just happened over the holidays, and it's about psychology, right? And you know, we've all heard about mob mentality, like people go and do things that they would never do, except that they don't have any accountability, because there's a group of people. So I was traveling, I think we're in San Diego, and I'm standing at a light to cross, and so is everyone else. They're all standing there waiting to cross. And the light was...

It took a long, long time. So I said to myself, I'm gonna cross the next time it's clear. I don't care if it's red. And I said to my boyfriend, watch everyone follow me. I said, because I'm going to do the mob mentality. It's like a negotiation, but it's like nonverbal negotiation. I walked across once it was clear and everyone on my side of the street followed, like 20 people just followed and they crossed against the light when before no one was crossing the light.

Everyone was standing, waiting, but they saw, they decided, as a group, we will all cross, then no one is doing anything wrong because everyone else is doing this, right? So it's the understanding of the psychology when you're negotiating, when you understand, by being nice to someone, by calling them by name, like it makes them feel a certain way. It gives them agency to help you.

Mike Inman (13:29)
Yes.

I love that word agency, and then, and to help, because, because they can hurt you, too. They can say no, they can hang up the phone. I've had agents who couldn't do what I was asking. I like, I like to ask for exceptions. I'm a negotiator. I'm gonna try. And, and they'll say, Sir, can you hold? And after 27 minutes, I'm still on hold. No, I'm doing some emails and things like that. But I, or I get just cut off. And I'm like, they did that on purpose. Because they just didn't want to have to go through the hoops that I was asking.

Alice Shikina (13:51)
Yes.

Yes.

Yep.

Right, right, right. Yeah, look, and then it make it.

Mike Inman (14:17)
I love, I love your example.

I actually, I used that. I was closing a keynote. It one my first keynotes that I did. I was in London, very proper. I had crossed the street, because I was impatient as an American. And, and these Brits followed me, and I closed the keynote. I was talking about trying and being a little bit uncomfortable and pushing yourself. And, and I used that exact example. Now in fairness, please don't use that internationally, because I haven't been invited back. I think they thought I was a little bit too much as the American in the room.

Alice Shikina (14:46)
You're like

a rule breaker. They're like, we can't invite that rule breaker back.

Mike Inman (14:48)
Yeah.

Right. Well, I, exactly, I like, I've set policy. But, but if there's a good reason for policy, then I'm absolutely on board following it. But when there's a rule or a policy that just doesn't make sense, that's when I'm like, Well, let's bend this one. In fact, I had a boss that used to call me, side door. Because whenever a policy from the corporation would come out, he would say, Give it to side door. Because I'll find the exception. You know, there's always a way to have a business

You know, one of those things where they say, well, you can't, you have to leave within, you know, an X amount window. Your flight schedule has to be, and I'm like, well, let's just move the meeting. I'll find the flights I want to take, and then I'll arrange the meeting around that instead of having the meeting and then find the flights. It's a, it's a chicken and egg situation. But if you're to give me a side door, I will find a way to take that side.

Alice Shikina (15:26)
Right.

Exactly, exactly. So I think that, you know, I don't really like, very similar to you, I don't like the word manipulation.

However, for people like us who negotiate regularly, it's really important to understand the psychology of people and what happens when you're nice to someone. Well, when you're nice to someone, you get lots of endorphins, right? The person who is on the receiving end, they're getting endorphins, they're feeling good, and then you're giving them the power to make themselves feel good. Like if you called me and I'm the customer service agent and you gave me the agency to help you, I know that if I succeed in helping you,

I'm going to feel good.

Mike Inman (16:17)
and you're gonna get that five at the end of the phone call.

Alice Shikina (16:19)
and I'm gonna get more dopamine, right? I'm gonna be like, that felt really good. And so there's a self-serving piece of it, which is that humanity, my humanity, is that I will feel good if I can help you. And you're setting up the situation in such a way that you're letting me know, hey Alice, like if you can help me, I'll be grateful. And I think to myself, if I can make my grateful, I'm going to feel good about it.

Mike Inman (16:24)
So,

So I talk a lot about the other side's sheet of paper and how important knowing what their sheet of paper is when you're negotiating. As a negotiator, I want to make them happy. Now, I want to make my side happy too, happier whenever possible. But what you said about knowing the dopamine effect, I actually get dopamine. I feel good when I make someone else feel good. When somebody posts a picture on Facebook of their

Alice Shikina (17:11)
Yes.

Mike Inman (17:17)
family gathering of their kids, graduate, whatever. I like to hit the like button. I feel good about that, because I think I'm making them feel good because their picture got the like. So both sides can win out of that situation. So my sheet of paper is I want to make people feel good.

Alice Shikina (17:29)
Yes.

Exactly. And so I think that you're totally right in that, you know, the customer service people aren't paid very much. But here's another thing that you didn't mention. They're also usually not trained very well to handle angry people. And because of that, and because they're getting like yelled at all day long because they don't know how to handle it. I don't know if you know this, but the churn, the turnover rate in customer service is extremely high.

Because people don't like to A, get yelled at, but B, not know how to handle and deescalate someone who is upset. Right?

Mike Inman (18:14)
So,

there's something that just came up. I was on a flight internationally coming back. We were in the front of the plane. And this gentleman's in-flight entertainment and Wi-Fi weren't working where he was. Now, I know the Wi-Fi was working because I was on it. My wife was on it. So there was something with his equipment, his setup, you know, who knows what's on his phone. And he was frustrated. So we talked to one of the pursers, one of the flight attendants.

And they decided to escalate and bring over the head. That's why I mentioned the word purser. I think that's what they call themselves, but the head flight attendant came over. And as he was describing this problem, he said, and this really frustrating. And then she repeated back immediately, it is really frustrating. And I thought to myself, you've read Chris Voss. You, you just mirrored back the language that you just heard because well-trained customer service people are trained.

to do that. They are trained to repeat back what the words are and to mirror the other side to make sure you feel like you have empathy. Right? Now, but here's, here's my take. So manipulation, you know, if you are using it to, to hurt the other side, then it's manipulation. And that's bad. And we should stay away from it. If you're using it to help the other side or help the deal, the situation you're negotiating get better, then it's not really manipulation.

Because it's not a harmful tool, and it can be a helpful tool in the situation. But this gentleman was in an emotional state. He was on this eight-hour flight, and he couldn't get connected, and he paid a lot of money for this seat. So the frustrations were high with him. The emotions were high, and she used it, it deescalated the situation. I was objective. My entertainment system worked. My Wi-Fi worked. I'm having a glass of wine in first class.

All is good for me. But when I heard it, I went, you went to training. And then my next thought was, you're not really being empathetic. You're just trying to deescalate so you don't have a problem with the rest of this plane. It was kind of self-serving. And I just thought to myself, I guess the word I'll use is, it didn't feel authentic.

Alice Shikina (20:32)
So there's a couple of things. So I wasn't there, so I could...

I didn't hear her tone of voice, right? The person's tone of voice. However, you can use that and be authentic because it's not just about, repeating back what they said. It's really about trying to make that person feel like they were heard. Because if I say to someone, I'm really frustrated and they keep on saying other things, I'm going to feel like they are not listening to me. I have said 10 times, I'm frustrated and they're not acknowledging that. So there is some kind of value in repeating it back

Because then I feel like, okay, you heard me. You heard me say I'm frustrated. So at least I feel acknowledged and at least I feel like my feelings have been acknowledged. you know, and like let's say she said yes. What was it that you said, the exact phrasing? huh.

Mike Inman (21:23)
she, so he said, It's really frustrating. And

she repeated back, and I'll try to do the inflection in her voice. She said, It is really frustrating. And she even nodded her head when she said it. So she was giving him the affirmation. I just saw a thing on body language on, on how to tell when people, top 4 reasons people, top 4 ways to see that people are lying. It's when they say, Yes, and their head goes the other way, or when they say no, and there's a

disassociation between the physical and the words that you know they're they're probably misleading you but she clearly she said it is frustrating and I almost felt almost like when you're talking to a child it was a little bit condescending yeah

Alice Shikina (21:51)
Right.

Yes, yeah, it sounds like it. So there's

a slight tweak that you can make. In negotiation, you know, Mike, every little word is important, right? Every single word in your choice of phrasing. So, you know, maybe she doesn't really care. So if that's the case and you can't really be...

sincere and authentic feeling like it's really frustrating, right, and it's not coming across, you can just adjust your wording to say, I understand this is really frustrating for you.

Right? Because, yes. Because then I'm not necessarily saying, it's frustrating or that I empathize, but at least I can understand that for you, this is really frustrating. And I don't necessarily have to share that emotion in the way that you were saying. Because it sounds like, like you said, it sounded condescending, which sometimes if someone is not feeling frustrated and they say, it is frustrating, it sounds like you're talking to a child. Right? And then I'll be like, wait, what is wrong with this person? Like she's talking down.

Mike Inman (22:32)
For you. Yeah.

Yeah.

Alice Shikina (23:02)
to me, right? Or I'm getting condescended to. So to avoid that from happening, you can rephrase it in a way where you're still saying the same thing, but it doesn't sound condescending. I understand that this is very frustrating for you, right? I don't have to have, I don't have to share that emotion. I don't have do anything. I just have to acknowledge that you are feeling a certain way because of this. And that's it. Which is very different.

Mike Inman (23:28)
love it. And,

and you know, every word matters. And so you're as a lawyer, so you'll appreciate, hopefully you appreciate this quick one on words mattering. And sometimes they're very small words. So one of my first big negotiations I did, I was in a, General Motors, working with a supplier, negotiated a deal where they could be a preferred supplier. And, and my intention of that was, I've got five suppliers that I can go with. And, and you're on my preferred supplier list, means you're going to get the bid.

You know, I'm going to have to take some extra meetings with you, things like that. But A means you're one of the five. When the con, and I let them as they were the supplier. So of course, taking notes is administrative. You, you take the notes. So when the contract came back, their legal team had drafted it. They were the preferred supplier. So I had, I had boxed myself in over this one tiny word, A versus the. And this is, this is where I,

Alice Shikina (24:23)
The.

Mike Inman (24:25)
tell everybody that I work with, make sure you take the notes and to be intentional about your wording.

Alice Shikina (24:33)
Absolutely, yes, because in negotiation, as you found out, the hard way, every word counts, you know? And I want to go back for a minute, Mike. I had a recent mediation between siblings, adult siblings.

Mike Inman (24:37)
All right. Right. Right.

Alice Shikina (24:47)
and they were arguing about the care of their father, which is something that happens to many of us, right? When we're in our 50s and 60s, we start to have to deal with the care of our aging parents. And it was interesting because the brother didn't feel like the sister had done a very good job up to that point taking care of their father. And so he went and told her this prior to the mediation. And as you can imagine, the whole conversation blew up because he was highly critical. So in the pre-mediation session,

when we were talking, he's like, okay, I really want to be able to get this off my chest and tell her how terrible of a job she's been doing. And then he had all these asks, like things that he wanted her to do. And I was like, hold up, you can't do this. Like, there's no way you're going to get any kind of like cooperation with your sister if you open the conversation by saying, by the way, you've done a terrible job thus far. And so he was like, really? And I said, no, you have to make her feel good. You have to say thanks for everything you've done.

far, I appreciate the effort you put in, and then you can get what you want." And so he was a little skeptical because he wanted to be very honest about how terrible he thought she had been, but we went in and he did not, he held his tongue, he did not do that, he did exactly how I coached him, and he got, he got an agreement because she was like, wow, like this is a different person. The last time I showed up you were like so angry and you were like criticizing me, which I felt was very

unfair and so when he said look because she did put effort whether he thought it was enough effort is a different matter

Mike Inman (26:24)
here's what I heard you say, Alice. You said they had disagreements where he was very critical of her and then they came into the mediation where you had coached him to not be as critical. So I'm thinking here, projecting, that she was in a situation where she went, I got yelled at and I don't like getting yelled at. He's probably gonna come here and yell at me. he's not yelling. Well, this is more pleasant, but I know he could yell at me, but he's not.

Alice Shikina (26:29)
Yes.

Mike Inman (26:53)
So then when it comes to making concessions, she was more open to it because she didn't want the next meeting to be adversarial again. she wanted to almost like Pavlov's dogs, she wanted to reward him for being nice by making concessions. So it all worked out the way you had planned. I'm assuming that you'd kind of planned for that to.

Alice Shikina (27:14)
Well, I also asked the brother, I said, what is your ultimate goal? Is your ultimate goal to berate your sister or is your ultimate goal to resolve the care of your father? And he said, well, the goal is to resolve the care of my father. And I said, then keep your eye on the prize. I said, because if you get sidetracked by these other agenda items that you have that's not your goal, you're not going to achieve your goal. So sometimes in negotiation, it is very good to remind yourself

What is your true goal in the negotiation? Because if you allow your emotions, your feelings about how they've been, all of that stuff to sort of take over your mind and you say, well, I'm gonna show up and as soon as Mike and I get on the call, first I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind. I'm gonna tell him how unhappy I am. And if I'm not keeping the real goal in mind is that, hey, I want this project done and I would like for Mike and I to collaborate, you're going to derail yourself in the negotiation. So you have to be very,

critical for yourself as to what are you going to show up and talk about. Don't let your emotions derail the conversation, the negotiation, and make you lose your goal.

Mike Inman (28:31)
Well said. Can I share a story? Yeah, I don't have any confidentiality and most of the people won't be listening to this anyway. They're involved. But when I was 20, my mom got remarried and I married into a step-family. I was an only child, married into a step-family with three siblings. And that was a whole interesting dynamic. Fast forward eight years or so and my stepfather died. Now he lived a very nice lifestyle. He had...

At one time he had 26 weeks of timeshare in St. Martin, which then he bought a house there. He had very nice cars. He had his own business. And everyone in the family, except me, because I was step and I didn't come into the family until I was 20, thought when he dies, they will each and all be millionaires because there's all of this money. And when he passed, what they found out was when you go...

the prorbate, the will process, the bills all have to be paid first. And he was indeed a gross multimillionaire. He was not, however, a net multimillionaire. So after all the leverage, all the loans were paid off, there was this little tiny pile of money left. And it was less than each of them thought. I think it was $400,000 and all four thought they were going to get a million dollars plus. several of them approached me.

Well, Mike, what should we do? And I said, here's what you don't do. You don't lawyer up and you don't go to court because what's going to happen is the 400,000 is going to go to zero. And you're going to let's so I said, you should each just look, take your losses, split it up four ways and just why I deserve a million because it says in the will. No, no, doesn't matter what it says in the will because there's not a million to split up. So so they all lawyered up and.

Alice Shikina (30:06)
Yep.

Mike Inman (30:25)
at the end of the day, I think they cut their losses at 150,000 when that was all that was left after all of this. But they were mad at me because they didn't each still get their million. Like I should have given them each better advice on the situation. And I'm like, guys, you were so interested in arguing in what your position is, you forgot about, you got to take the whole deal, look at it as a whole.

Alice Shikina (30:30)
my gosh, that's awful.

Mike Inman (30:50)
And each person's got to come away with something that's a win. Because if they, if the other people don't get a win, they will do everything in their power to make sure you don't get your win either. Right?

Alice Shikina (31:00)
Right.

Exactly. What's interesting too, because in that particular scenario, it wasn't really a matter of like, do I get a million, do I go to court and get a million or do I get 400,000? So they didn't even have the goals like in their mind properly set because the goal is, do we get a part of 400,000 or do we get a part of what's remaining after the lawyers get everything, right?

Mike Inman (31:22)
Well, that was the emotion.

They were so upset that their dad died and his husband died. So that's, that's emotional. Your brain is firing. And then they were, they were frustrated that they went from being millionaires overnight to not being millionaires. So that's a giant frustration. And then they were upset that the other people were in the way of them getting their share of the 400,000. So there was just tons of emotion. And I was on the sidelines, this kind of, you know, it's that popcorn meme. I was like, guys, don't do this.

that you could see the train wreck coming down the track. And I was telling them, don't let the trains collide. And they collide.

Alice Shikina (31:53)
Yep.

Yeah,

it's interesting because when people get to the point that they're actually hiring lawyers and going to litigation, I've seen this many, many times either through helping lawyers get ready for trial or as the mediator. Sometimes those emotions that you and I have been talking about, the kind where you can deescalate and you can kind of talk people through it, sometimes people are stuck in high emotion. As you saw your step siblings, right? It's just an ongoing, like it could be years long of emotion. And so because of that,

Like, I want people to understand when you're highly emotional, you can't actually make logical decisions. Like you said...

Mike Inman (32:38)
so, so I got a small, I got, I got a little insurance policy that he had had written up for me. So the insu, so part of the law is I just got my check. Like, and then they came to me, this is irrational, they were, they wanted me to put my insurance check in their pot of money. And I'm like, No, no, no, that's, you guys are in the will. You guys were gonna be millionaires, remember? I'm like, what's your name with the two sisters, the evil stepsisters? No, not Snow White.

with the broom. I'm Cinderella, but I wasn't a good Cinderella. was like on the outside. I was kept up in the attic. Like when everything was around, you I wasn't in the club, but now that he's dead, you want me to join the club? And I'm like, no, that's not gonna happen. So then they were, they were mad at me for not contributing my small portion to their small portion.

Alice Shikina (33:08)
Cinderella?

Right.

my gosh. Yeah, so it's just, it's very unfortunate that people get so driven in their emotions that they can't see, like, you can talk to them until you're blue and they can't hear it. So I just want the listeners to be aware that if they're in any kind of familial situation, inheritance situation, anything where it's just driving emotions from like decades ago,

You just need to be aware that, number one, you probably should be getting advice from somebody else, right? Someone like yourself, but you need to listen to it, even though you feel like, no, this is not what I want, but it doesn't matter because what you want is driven by the emotion, and someone who is more objective can help talk your way to a reasonable resolution.

Mike Inman (34:19)
Hey, I also got another question for you. We talked about words being important, and we talked about mirroring. Talk to me about location or room setup of an emotional mediation.

Alice Shikina (34:33)
So it's interesting because I was trained by a mediator who said, I love to make people like sit and stew with their discomfort with one another because I feel like that's gonna make them, know, they're gonna feel the discomfort. Yes, right, right, right. That kind of thing.

Mike Inman (34:45)
leave them in the room and you go outside to have coffee? Okay.

Alice Shikina (34:49)
strongly disagree. So I believe that just like we've been talking for the past 15 minutes about strong emotions, if people are in a negotiation or in a mediation and they're very upset, I immediately, as a matter of I don't even let them get very upset. The minute they're slightly upset, I'm like, okay, we're gonna go in different rooms. I need everyone to stay as calm and relaxed as possible or we're not going to get to a resolution. The only way to get to resolution is if everyone is feeling good.

about the conversation.

Mike Inman (35:21)
So,

so carrot and stick, just like the other example you used, he was being nice and, and he got rewarded with concessions in that situation. And what I heard you say was, you act that way, I'm going to split you up. You don't get to talk to each other that way. So it's a, it's a negative reinforcement. So now when they do come back together, after they've cooled off, they're trained, they're not allowed to do that again.

Alice Shikina (35:35)
Yes.

So, but I don't frame it that way. I don't frame it like it's a punishment. This is what I say. At the very beginning, I say, if there's an impasse, or if I'm noticing high emotions, I'm gonna go ahead and put us in breakout rooms so everyone has a place to sort of cool off and relax and have their own space. But sometimes you can't tell because people have like a mask on, right? And they look like they're calm, but inside they're stewing and they're really angry. So after a few years of mediating, I decided to add a

thing in my mediation and I say, also, if you are not feeling comfortable, if you feel like your heart is racing, your breathing's shallow, you're kidding, your temples are, you know, beating, your heartbeat is up in your temple, and you're not feeling good, if you can't stay present because you're feeling any negative emotion, including defensiveness, all you have to do is say, Alice, I need to go into a breakout room. So everyone gets a chance to call that shot.

Mike Inman (36:42)
but not the reason why,

you just say, I need to break out.

Alice Shikina (36:46)
That's it, that's it. And so once I started doing that, people, once you give them the permission to ask for it, people immediately take it. So my mediations are relatively calm, even with people who are charged emotionally, because everyone knows they can just throw down that white flag and say like, let's go into different rooms, because.

It's very difficult to try to get people who are very emotional to a solution, but if you can keep everyone calm...

you're helping them think through things in a more logical fashion. And you know, if you're in a separate room with me, then you can just spout to me, like, I can't believe this, I'm so frustrated. But once you release it, then you're calm again. And now we're back to negotiating. So I also don't let people come back together. I'm not the one calling the shots. I don't let people come back together until the parties mutually agree they are ready. So I'm not the one saying, okay, now you're calm, let's go back. I'll ask you, Mike, do you feel ready?

Mike Inman (37:44)
Now, do you just bounce back

and forth across the hall, down the hall to each room? So you don't even use like text or some technology. You're, you're getting your steps in that day.

Alice Shikina (37:46)
Yes. Yes.

Yes, if it's in person, I'm going back and forth. So it's called shuttle mediation because I'm like a shuttle going back and forth and passing messages back. But yeah, it's very effective.

Mike Inman (37:56)
OK. Sure. How about, how about

in the room, room setup? You know, there's a round table, there's an oblong table, there's a square table. Do you let them seat themselves? Do you put name plaques out? How do you, because I've found that room setup can be important. When I am on a team where I am the bad cop, where I am, where I am the person who's trying to voice the word not pleased about the situation, I will pick a seat.

toward one end of the table and I will pick a seat that might not even be at the table. I might be in the corner that I'm physically so far away from the yes in the middle that they've got to do things to bring me back in. Now, when I am in mediation mode, when I am the good cop, when I am the collaborator, Mike, I sit in the middle of the table where I'm bringing, even my own team is on one side, got the other side. I try to stay away from

Alice Shikina (38:50)
you

Mike Inman (38:57)
opposite sides of the table from my counterpart because that is a very physical obstruction to us. How do you think about room setup?

Alice Shikina (39:09)
So the way I usually try to set it up is I try to sit in the middle between them, right? So if they're sitting face to face, I'm sitting in between because I want people to, not everyone feels comfortable to speak directly to their adversary or opponent or whatever you want to call them, right? Whoever they're arguing with. And so if I'm sitting in between them, a lot of times people just direct the conversation at me.

They may be talking to the other side, but they're looking at me because it's more comfortable to say, okay, Alice is a neutral party. Let me just tell her how angry I am about what's happening as opposed to looking directly at the person that you're angry with. So I try to put myself.

Mike Inman (39:44)
can see that. So, so it's almost

like this. They're almost saying, Now, listen, Jimmy, I am really upset at Alice, and I don't have the words to tell her to her face. So I'm hoping that you can help me find the right word. Like that kind of a thing? OK. Whereas, Alice, I'm really angry at you. Yeah.

Alice Shikina (39:50)
Yes.

Yes! Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. then, right, right,

right.

So they will tell me. And so it's slightly different because the energy, that negative energy is coming towards me. And so the person that they're directing it towards is not getting 100 % of that negative energy because energy is alive and it's real. And it's like water in that if you take a cup of whatever you're feeling and you throw it at the person, they're gonna get wet with whatever energy. So if you're angry and you throw a cup of anger at someone, they're gonna receive it. So if they're throwing it at me instead,

they're not going to get the full effect of it coming directly at them.

Mike Inman (40:35)
So I love that you said that. It reminded me of a story. The guy I worked for, Jeremy Bach, we were at MGM Resorts. And MGM was a, it was a toxic leadership environment. There were three companies that come together and they were all fighting for positions. And if you weren't on this team, you were against this team. there was, yelling was prevalent. You know, if you can think customer service phone calls in, in the hospitality industry, people yell at the front desk, they yell at the pit boss, they yell at everybody up the way. So yelling just kind of is part of the culture.

But Jeremy had this way about him that when tensions got high and when voices got high and yelling, you could see him, I'm gonna use the word shut down, but it was really more he was a sponge and he would sit there quietly while people were exhausting themselves. All this negative energy was coming out and over minutes you could see his body language. He would deflate as he was receiving this negative energy. And then once they were,

energized out. Once they had exhausted their emotions, you could see him regroup and, and come back up and come, come back into life. But what he didn't do was engage and yell back. It was almost like Jujitsu. He would, he would take all that negative energy. He would tuck it into a place somewhere in his body. And then when it was gone, he could then take over the meeting in a more productive fashion. And I love that about him. But, but energy made me think of it.

Alice Shikina (42:00)
Either that, or

he made himself small so that the energy went past him. Right?

Mike Inman (42:04)
Could be, yeah, you're right,

could be avoidant, yeah.

Alice Shikina (42:07)
Because it's not, because energy is so real that once it comes towards you, especially in toxic energy, it goes into your body, right? So then if he was actually receiving all of that, even if he could like get up and talk again, I'm sure if he went home, he was not feeling very well. I've been in mediations between people that were so toxic, this is early on when they were just constantly arguing and I'm trying to mediate these people who are like arguing at every step of the way. And this is by the way, this is so early on that I was not in the place where I would put people into different

rooms, so we stayed in the same room. I got like physically ill at the end of one of the sessions because there was so much toxicity. I went home and I felt like I was nauseous from the session.

Right? Because I had absorbed a lot of that. So people ask me frequently, people that understand that this kind of work, you can absorb other people's energy. They say, what is your self care to get rid of that toxic energy? Typically for me, if I sleep, if I take a nap, it's kind of like when you feel like you're getting sick and you can feel a tickle in your throat. If you take a nap,

your immune system kind of gets into overdrive and fixes it. So if I take a nap right after a very toxic exchange, I can feel better.

Mike Inman (43:22)
And I agree. And I take little naps too. I'm susceptible to what I'll call the placebo effect. I don't know if that's the actual technical term, but if I tell myself something's going to work, it will. So I'm either dumb enough to be tricked by myself or I'm smart enough to trick myself. I don't know. But whatever it is, as long as you believe it's going to work. And I think things like naps and drinking water, you know, the things that should work from the science perspective, they will work if you believe they will work.

Alice Shikina (43:52)
Yes, yes, yeah, but you know, it's good.

Mike Inman (43:54)
But your energies,

I just, had a situation, and I'm not a large man, I'm six foot tall, and I weigh more than I should, but I don't weigh a lot, and I'm older. But we had a situation with a street person who was very aggressive. And I squared up, and I got big, and they backed away. But it wasn't because they were really,

physically threatened by me, don't think. mean, I wouldn't want to get in a fight with a street person, but it was the energy that I gave off that this isn't going to be easy for you. So you need to change your approach. And the ladies walking in front of us, they were being accosted when I jumped in. And my wife said something about it. I said, you know, I just feel like it's my obligation to the situation. If those ladies would have squared up, they were in physical harm's way. Now, so was I.

Alice Shikina (44:25)
It's probably your energy,

Mike Inman (44:51)
If you say, don't yell at me, that's different than saying, don't yell at me. And my energy is one of confrontation. know, there's people who fight and, no, fight and flight, fight and flight. The little person in my head says, there's conflict, let's go. And maybe that's the negotiator in me. When there's conflict, I say, let's go get it. We get to solve the conflict. We get to solve this problem. So when I see conflict, when I see, I'm like, let's go at it.

Alice Shikina (45:04)
Fight and flight, fight, flight.

Mike Inman (45:20)
Whereas other people are like, ooh, I want to stay away. And this energy makes the other person feel more confident and stronger that they can continue. Whereas this energy tells them, hey, go to your own room. We're not going to tolerate that behavior.

Alice Shikina (45:35)
Yes, absolutely. You know, it's interesting because a lot of times when we talk about negotiation, we always think about verbal negotiations. Those are nonverbal negotiations, right? You're trying to determine, like, are we fighting? Are we throwing down? Are you backing down? And so I think it's really important, like, those, especially the nonverbal ones, are more important because you have to bring more of the energy since you're not necessarily using words, right? You might be using words like, hey, get out of my way. But like, really, how you show up,

what kind of energy you show up with is really going to help like...

resolve the conflict? Is it like that you're looking weak and afraid and so therefore they can come at you or do you show up and confident and you're like, hey, don't mess with me because you don't want to mess with me, right? So just showing up with the right kind of energy is going to affect that nonverbal negotiation that you're having with someone because yes, it's indeed a conflict or a potential conflict with someone. A physical altercation is a conflict. And so the right kind of energy will solve it. Like when I'm walking around,

in shady neighborhoods or after dark. I'm not very tall. I'm 5'2". I'm small, but I'm very feisty. I make eye contact with people. I look at everyone in their face. I don't ever get bothered. No one ever comes to me, cat calls me, anything because, like, I'm very alert and very, you know, just, like, looking at people saying, like, hey, don't mess with me, cause, like, I'm not afraid of you.

Mike Inman (46:47)
You're feisty.

yeah.

that's what the street person said. He said, What are you looking at? And I looked at him and I said, I'm looking at you. Like I didn't say, I'm looking at nothing or, like, I wanted him to know that I was present, and I was paying attention to that situation. But, but let me take it back to what you said about room setup and things like that. Because I think there's some nonverbal things that can happen. One of the tools, you know, as I think about negotiations, there's processes and there's tactics and techniques, and I consider them all

tools in a toolkit. And then as a negotiator, you have to be a carpenter. You have to know which tool to use in the appropriate situation. And you have to know how to use that tool. You know, if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, and that's a funny-looking house. So, so one of the tools or techniques that I've used over the years is when we can't get to yes, when we're at an impasse, I won't say a conflict, we're impasse in the negotiation. If I feel it's the right time, and I, and I don't know, there's no

Alice Shikina (47:55)
Right.

Mike Inman (48:09)
scientific way to calculate it. I said to the other side, let's get out of here. Let's go for a walk. Let's get some coffee.

If I'm, if I'm near a door, I like to go outside. And then instead of being like you and I right now are face to face, at least on my screen, to walk shoulder to shoulder, looking in the same direction. So now we're no longer, you know, head to head. We're looking in the same direction. And I'll use my hands more than I do now you're on screen. And I'll point out to the horizon. And I'll say, listen, if we're going to get to a deal, and it's going to be a long-term deal, it's going to be a good long-term deal for both of us. I'll be

taking their direction out to the horizon that we're walking in. I've found that the competition that can happen decreases and that I can get things to move that I can't get to move by direct, being assertive, but just moving the direction that we're facing can get past some of those impasses. What are some of the techniques that you use

Or is it just, listen, go to your own rooms?

Alice Shikina (49:22)
So one of the things that I love, by the way, that's a great technique. I think that getting just out of...

getting out of the space of the conflict, right? So as a mediator, you never want to mediate as if you can help it in the place of conflict because everything in the environment is sort of like kind of stuck in their minds as this is where we have the conflict. It's better if you can take people out of it to a neutral space, an office space, your office space, something that's neutral. And so if you are negotiating in a business setting, like you said, and you're getting to an impasse, I think it's a fantastic idea to say, hey, let's go for a walk because now you're removing

both of you from the place of MPASS, which is that conference room that you've been stuck in for a while, right? It's changing the environment, changing the way people see. One of the things that I like to do is I like to ask both sides exact same question in separate rooms, which is, hey Mike, what kind of a deal can you offer that you think the other side would take?

And what that does, I'm gonna tell you what it really is asking, but I'm not asking it the way that I really want. The real question is, like, how much can you compromise? Right? Or put yourself in the other person's shoes. But nobody wants to do that. Nobody, if they're upset, nobody's gonna sit down and say, okay, let me think about, let me get into the other person's shoes. So I'm reframing it in a way that feels comfortable, because I don't want people to do things that feel unsafe or uncomfortable for them, psychologically.

right? And so I'm just saying, okay Mike, please I'm gonna leave for five minutes.

think of what kind of deal can you offer that you think the other side might accept. And you see how by doing that, I'm still asking them, get into the other side's shoes, but I'm not saying it that way. So you're gonna be a little bit more comfortable because you wanna get to a deal. And so you're gonna be like, okay, what kind of deal? So then I go to the other side and I say the same thing. And then we place offers on the table. And usually those offers are reasonable.

I had one where they had been in an impasse on a move away order. One parent wanted to move away to Southern California, the other person said, no, never, never, never. And so I did this exercise and they came back with two offers, each side had an offer, and the woman who was going to move away, her response was, we need to come back to another session because both of these are viable and I really wanna think deeply about it.

Mike Inman (51:50)
I really like that.

Alice Shikina (51:51)
And they never came back, but yeah.

I think they didn't come back because they were able to resolve it on their own, but she suddenly had two offers that she was like, both of these are reasonable, let me think about it, versus coming to the table saying we have no viable alternative because we're fighting.

Mike Inman (52:10)
Right.

Well, there are marketing studies that will back this up. If you give people 20 choices, they have paralysis by analysis. There's too many choices, and I don't want to make a decision. If you give them one, they feel boxed in. But I think three is the magic number. And they always pick the one in the middle, the most valuable choice. Whereas if you just offered it to that one alone, they wouldn't have chosen that. So maybe having the multiple offers allowed her

Alice Shikina (52:20)
Too many. Yep.

Yep, yep, yep, exactly.

Mike Inman (52:36)
I don't have to say yes or no. I won't win or lose. I have influence over what we're going to do.

Alice Shikina (52:44)
But you know what that does too? So it's interesting psychologically what that does is, know, number one, I'm helping people think about the other person's interests, right? But what that does is it makes the person who's making this offer usually be more generous.

because within that offer I coach them, I say, you wanna have something in it for you and something in it for them. So when they're doing that, the something in it for them is the generosity that's being shown by the person who's creating that offer. They end up offering more alimony, they end up saying, I'll pay for the private school, something extra because they know that if they offer to pay for it, then maybe the other person's likely to agree with them.

Right? And so before...

Mike Inman (53:31)
Now, do you tell them,

look, I want you to make an offer, but if they accept it, you don't have to do it. We just want to get you talking, or is it if you make this offer and they say yes, you have to do it?

Alice Shikina (53:42)
specify, I just say, you come up with an offer that they might be, that you're comfortable with, and that it's reasonable that they might accept it.

Mike Inman (53:53)
So they still have

the power to say no or to walk away, but at least it gets it going. Okay, good.

Alice Shikina (53:56)
Yeah, I don't say like, right, it gets it going,

right? And so people have a tendency to say, okay, I'll give you more of this if you can give me what I want. I'll give you more of that. And they don't do that naturally. People are like stingy, like, I just want that thing. And they're not necessarily negotiating to say, in a highly emotional state. They're not giving, they're like wanting to take. It's like a tug of war, right? And so I'm trying to coach them to say, what can you give them that they want?

Mike Inman (54:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alice Shikina (54:24)
that will make them like less in that tug of war, right?

Mike Inman (54:27)
Well, on the commercial

side, too, I see it a lot that especially buyers are really good at asking. Buyers are takers, and sellers are good at giving things away. And they think that's what a negotiation is. How much can the buyer take and how much can the seller give? So when I'm in sales mode, and clients say, Hey, it's a big number. Can you do better? A lot of people would go, I go, yeah, I can do better. I can do better if you can do better. What do you got? Do you have more volume?

Can you be flexible on your schedule? Can you be flexible on the instructor that you take? You know, because I just had a client, they joined us, they didn't have any money. They're a very small pool compared to what we normally make. And I said, sorry, this is, we're too far apart. It's not going to work out. Maybe next year, maybe the budget, something else. So a couple months go by and I got a cancellation. Hole in my schedule. I can't fill it. I got to get at least 24 people in a room and within a week to get that many people, it's just impossible.

So they happen to be very close to this client that didn't have the money. And I called up and I said, hey, listen, do you still have that budget? And they said, we do. And I said, I'll tell you what, if you can take me on Monday in your location, you can pull all your people together. I'll do something for that. We rescoped the session. They didn't get the full session, but they got enough training to get them going. They got to protect their budget, pay what they could. I got to fill a day that I couldn't ordinarily fill.

I mean, there's a lot of little wins in there that both sides can come. But if I say, listen, this is my number, and if you can't pay this, then we're not going to do business, I've limited myself.

Alice Shikina (56:03)
Yep, yep, exactly. I, yeah, exactly. So I think that's a, it's really good to think about what can you give so that you can get what you want.

Mike Inman (56:11)
Yeah,

I can do better if you can do better. What do you got that I might be interested in? And I'll put some tables that things on the table that you might be interested in.

Alice Shikina (56:19)
And what that does is it goes from deal making to more like collaboration. And when you're collaborating, you're much more likely to close the deal because you're collaborating.

Mike Inman (56:30)
Yeah. And that's what we should all do, right? Because at the end of the day, we can have a one-and-done negotiation, one side win, one side loses. Or we can be such good negotiators that people want to negotiate more deals with us. And I want to be on that end of the scale.

Alice Shikina (56:47)
Yes, definitely. Well Mike, this was fabulous. I'm so happy that we had this conversation. So yeah, so I'd love to know how people can get in touch with you if they would like to work with you.

Mike Inman (56:59)
Sure. Our negotiationtraining.com website is the best place. Front door tells us more about what we do. It's all we do is negotiation training. I'm on LinkedIn. Please link in with me. I'm out there. I love to collaborate with people. And we may not always agree, but I will give you my best disagreement, most professional, polite way of doing it. And I can learn something if I'm wrong, and the rest of the people can learn something if I'm right.

Alice Shikina (57:21)
And listeners, thank you again for tuning in to another episode of negotiation with Alice. Until next time.